在加拿大經歷了近3年的居家監禁生活後，華為首席財務官孟晚舟日前已經安全返回中國。孟和美國相關法院達成緩起訴協議，美國也撤回對她的引渡申請。對此，CGTN主持人田薇獨家專訪了著名暢銷書《美國陷阱》的作者、前法國阿爾斯通集團市場和銷售總監弗雷德裡克•皮耶魯奇（Frédéric Pierucci）。皮耶魯奇是全球知名的“吹哨人”，專門揭露美國的“長臂管轄”問題。因為他早年就親身經歷了美國政府利用“長臂管轄”、《反海外腐敗法》等司法武器，拿公權力和國家暴力，打擊美國企業商業競爭對手。皮耶魯奇說：此次中國以國家意志對抗美國“長臂管轄”，為世界立下了標杆。他認為，其它國家雖然現在不說，但是心裡一定印象深刻。未來面對美國的“長臂管轄”，要像中國一樣據理力爭，才有出路。
田薇：華為創始人任正非的長女孟晚舟，平安回到中國。聽到這個訊息，您做何感想？
Tian Wei: What do you make of the latest development with Ms Meng Wanzhou, the eldest daughter of Ren Zhengfei, founder of Huawei?
弗雷德裡克•皮耶魯奇: 在很長一段時間裡，她一定曾經飽受煎熬，顯然，這對所有人來說都是一個非常積極的結果。這件事表明，如果一國政府願意為之付出不懈努力，能夠很大程度上推動此類事件的解決。在我看來，這標誌著中國的一個巨大勝利，因為這確實是第一次以一個國家的意志，成功回擊了美國的這種長臂管轄。
Frederic Pierucci: I think this is the end of a very longer period for her, which should have been very stressed. So obviously, this is a very positive outcome for everybody. And it shows that when the State is taking this thing into its own hands, you know, it can help a lot in both kinds of cases. So for me, I see this is a very huge win for China, because it's really the first time, but the country stand up to the long-arm jurisdiction of the United States in such a way.
田薇：弗雷德，孟女士沒有認罪，但她卻簽署了一份延期起訴協議。在你看來，這意味著什麼呢？
Tian Wei: Fred, she did not plead guilty, but she did use a DPA (Deferred Prosecution Agreement). What does that mean?
弗雷德裡克•皮耶魯奇：這意味著面對各種指控，她並沒有認罪。她只是承認了美國對這個案件的事實陳述，但沒有認罪。據我瞭解 這種延期起訴協議通常適用於公司，而非適用於個人。個人與司法部簽訂延期起訴協議是非常少見的事情。事實上，在所有所謂《反海外腐敗法》案件中，我從未見過這樣的先例。這表明談判過程非常艱難，而且美國司法部在達成這種協議時肯定做了不少讓步。總之，這意味著她沒認罪，也不會被認定為有罪。這意味著，只要她遵守延期起訴協議的條款，美國將在一年後，也就是2022年12月，撤銷對她的起訴。
Frederic Pierucci: It means that she didn't plead guilty of the counts that she was prosecuted for. So she admitted to a statement of facts. But she did not plead guilty. So this kind of agreement, deferred prosecution agreement, usually it's reserved for corporations, not for individuals. It's very, very unique that an individual can enter into a deferred prosecution agreement with the Department of Justice. In fact, for instance, in all Foreign Corrupt Practice Act cases, I have never seen such a thing. It shows that the negotiation has been very, very tough, and that the department of justice has really bent a lot to accommodate this kind of agreement. So basically, it means that she has not pled guilty. So she's not recognized as guilty. And it means that if she abides to the term of the deferred prosecution agreement, the United States are going to cancel the indictment against her in one year from now, in December of 2022.
田薇：弗雷德，這當然非同尋常。但我瞭解到，從美方毫無根據地逮捕你的那天起，到你離開監獄的那天，你也經受過不少煎熬。能否談談當時你的處境？是什麼最終導致你做出了後來的決定（所謂認罪）？
Tian Wei: And that makes a huge difference of course, Fred. But I know that you were struggling so much throughout the process from the day when they tried to catch you with unfounded circumstances to the day that you left the prison. Tell me more about how you struggled and what eventually led you to make the decision that you did.
弗雷德裡克•皮耶魯奇：我沒有孟女士那麼幸運，我的公司並沒有向我提供那麼強大的支援，我的祖國也沒有給我提供強大的支援。因此，在幾個月的監禁後，我真的感到非常孤獨。如果我想避免在美國的監獄中度過接下來的15年，那麼我就必須做出後來的選擇。因此，我的情況與她有著很大的差異。我從孟晚舟事件中觀察到，整個華為公司從頭到尾都在支援她。同時在外交領域，中國可能也為達成這項協議付出了很大的努力。你還要明白，我的案件發生在2013到2014年。當時世界各國對美國的長臂管轄還缺乏瞭解。在阿爾斯通案之前，其實已經發生過一些類似的案件，但大多數人都沒有注意到。直到阿爾斯通案發生後，法國才修改“反腐敗法”來保護法國公司。
Frederic Pierucci: I didn't have the chance to have my company’s support like she had, and I didn't have a chance to have my country’s support like she had. So after a few months of incarceration, I realized that I was really alone and that if I wanted to avoid spending the last 15 years in prison in the United States, I had to do the choices that I made. So this is a huge difference. What I have seen in the Huawei case is that the whole company was behind her from beginning to the end. And also diplomatically, China probably did a lot of things to come to this kind of agreement. What you have to remember is that my case occurred in 2013 and 2014. At that time, the world was not so aware of the long-arm jurisdiction of the United States. There have been a few cases before the Alstom case, but those cases were unnoticed by most of the people. Even in France, we had to wait until the Alstom case in order to change the French anti-corruption law to protect French company, and so on.
田薇：我記得孟女士得知自己可以回國後，談到過去近兩年半的時間裡她遇到了重重難題，但她也談到即使是烏雲邊上也可以有銀線。以我對於你話語的理解，你似乎也得出了類似的結論。
Tian Wei: I remember Ms Meng after she knew she could go back to China, she talked about the past almost two and half years as absolutely disruptive moment of her life, but she also talked about every cloud has its own silver lining. If I understand what you just said, it seems that you are reaching similar conclusions.
弗雷德裡克•皮耶魯奇：是的，我認為她一直在堅持不懈地抗爭，而這需要非凡的勇氣。昨天（孟晚舟女士回國）發生的事情確實令人振奮。所以我認為她選擇不放棄是正確之舉。回顧過去兩年半的時間，她本人、她的家人、她的父親，以及所有人都必定會百感交集。也許到頭來，沒有任何一個歐洲國家會說出來，但每個人內心深處都應該為這個結局感到欣慰。因為這確實是第一次有國家正面回擊美國瘋狂的長臂管轄。事實上，這件事將使許多其他國家受益，前提是他們有勇氣做同樣的抗爭，起身反抗美國的做法。對於未來，讓我們一起拭目以待，這起事件將有望成為歷史性轉折點。反觀今日，這並不意味著一切都會好起來，因為我認為美國不會停止將法律用作經濟武器。雖說如此，至少現在我們看到，那種做法會遭到堅決的回擊。
Frederic Pierucci: Yeah, I think she was amazingly courageous also to continue to fight back. And yesterday's result is really amazing. So I think she did the right thing not to give up. Those 2.5 years have been also very, very complicated for her, for her family, for her father, for everybody. At the end of the day, no European country will say this, but everybody deep down should feel grateful to what is happening here, because it's really one of the first time that a country is really standing up to the United States to stop this craziness of long-arm jurisdiction. In fact, this will benefit a lot of other countries providing they have the courage to do the same thing, stand up and fight back. Let's see what happened, but this is probably going to hopefully going to be a turning point. Now, it doesn't mean that everything would be easier now, because I think the United States will not stop choosing their law as an economic weapon, but at least now we see they could get some response to this.
